The Y-DNA 25 marker results are in for John Martin Laird (thats me), and the
results are very interesting. Of course the information is open to
interpretation. All the information I give below is based on my own
understanding of DNA testing and may not be the accepted norm, as I am
not a DNA expert.
To understand Y-DNA testing the most important thing we need to learn
about is genetic distance, but the only thing you need to know here is that
the criteria I used in comparing other surnames to Laird was a genetic
distance of not more than 2. Unfortunately, there is a great number of
people that chose the 12 marker test instead of the 25 marker test, and this
fact makes it difficult to make an intelligent comparison with their test
results. Now that you have a basic understanding about how I came up
with the information below lets get to it.
When my Y-DNA 12 marker test came in I was very excited to see over 100
names pop up as matches on www.ysearch.org. The search on my kit
BU8XC pulled up names that I had no idea I may be related to. But one
thing we must be very careful of with a 12 marker test is that we are going
to get a lot of false matches, and I did. Matches with at least 6 people with
the surname Campbell showed up giving me the idea I was somehow a
long lost Campbell. I may be related to the Clan Campbell, but it is far back
in antiquity. Now how did the 25 marker DNA test affect the Campbell factor
in my DNA test? Adding in the other 13 new markers pushed being related
to some of the Campbells back farther in time by hundreds or thousands of
years. I think back to a time before the event of surnames. Now this is not to
say that I don't match some Campbells with the 25 marker test, but that the
number of matches to Campbell does not stand out like a sore thumb. If we
look at the septs for Clan Campbell and compare it against my Y-DNA the
surname Moore is the only Clan Campbell sept match, and this surname
Moore is part of the MacGregor DNA Project. For more on the Clan
Campbell go to Clan Campbell Society of North America.
In the year 1603 the privy council passed an act outlawing the name
MacGregor. Any person who did not change their name would be hunted
down and put to death. Many people gave up their ancient and beloved
name for a name that was not their own, but did have some kind of
sentimental value. The most common names used were Campbell, Graham,
Stewart, and Drummond. The Clan Gregor has over 100 surnames that are
accepted as part of their Clan. The Clan Gregor Society has a list of names
divided into 4 categories. If you would like to see a full list of these names
go to www.clangregor.org. This site also has information regarding the
MacGregor DNA Project.
Now I don't want you to think that I believe that Laird is a changed form of
MacGregor, even though this is possible, more likely, it is possible that my
Laird line is derived from the Clan Gregor somehow. One of the ways that
this can happen is we have a common ancestor back before surnames
were adopted, or secondly, Laird may be a lost sept of MacGregor.
My Y-DNA does match closely to The suspected King Colla Uais Y-DNA and
this fact can cause matches to the Clans descended from his family.
There is documented proof that my branch of the Laird family was in
Northern Ireland before they departed for America, and there is one
Scottish Clan that accepts the Lairds as one of their own, they moved to
Northern Ireland with them, the Clan MacCleod. For more on this check out
this page Clan MacCleod.
To see the markers use this link Laird DNA chart.
were uploaded to ysearch.org into their database. Several other sites have
combined the results of their tests into this database, making the ysearch.
org database much larger than the familytreedna.com database. But there
does seem to be one flaw to this approach, if we look at the Clan Campbell
on ysearch.org only 52 of the 110 Campbells from familytreedna.com
uploaded their Y-DNA results.
The familytreedna.com site has a Scottish Clan project and the following
information is a result of this project. Names posted more than once,
matched more than one time. There are more exact matches for Cooper,
but they are from 12 marker tests, and for this reason familytreedna.com
did not include them in the 25 marker results. The same is true for Turner, if
they did not have the 25 marker test they are excluded. I can not guarantee
that we are getting full results in the ysearch.org results, and the reason for
this is the fact that unless they chose to share the information with ysearch.
org it will not be in their database.
Laird Y- DNA 25 marker test matches.
Cooper 2 perfect matches.
Campbell genetic distance of 1.
All of the following have a genetic distance of 2:
- Anderson
- Erickson
- Turner
- Bentley
- Robertson
- Turner
- Parkhill
- Campbell
- Mckinlay
- Stewart
- Welfare
- Stirling
The strongest match is Cooper and Turner, as far as I can tell they are not a
sept of MacGregor, but I do have some interesting information on Cooper
and Turner at the bottom of the page. Anderson is the name of the minister
that married Rob Roy MacGregor and Mary Campbell, Mary's mother was a
Campbell, and related to the Duke of Argyll. Also I think Rob Roy
MacGregor had a cousin with the surname Anderson. Now, lets look at the
other surnames that most likely do not connect to the Clan Macgregor,
Erickson, Bentley, Parkhill, and Welfare. This leaves us with the following:
- Campbell
- Robertson
- Campbell
- Mckinlay
- Stewart
- Stirling
Gregor septs or aliases. The McKinlay name shown above is actually in the
Clan Gregor DNA Project, as is the Stewart and Stirling. MacKinlay is also
accepted by the Stewarts of Appin as one of their own. Now, these are only
the matches from the familytreedna.com site. Lets move on to the ysearch.
org site.
surname matches. Cooper came up 5 times, Turner 6 times, and Fifteen of
the matches are MacGregor septs or aliases. If you want to look at all the
surname matches go to www.ysearch.org and use the kit number BU8XC.
in the familytreedna.com site. Not only are there more matches, but other
Clan Gregor sept and aliases match up.
McDonald, McDonald, Grant, Campbell,Campbell, Stirling, Stirling, Stewart,
Gordan.
Scottish Clans, this is expected. When the government told the
MacGregors to change their surname or die, they were told to adopt
another Clan name if they wished. If we look at the MacAdams surname,
one fact that stands out, is that MacAdams is only used by the Clan
MacGregor.
marker test to look at, more Campbells showed up. If we look closer, there
is not much of a change in the DNA between many Campbells and
MacGregors. In fact, the 13 new markers from the upgrade to 25 markers
are very close also. If we look at the history of the area both Clans
originated from, they owned the same land, but in different times of
Scottish history.
MacGregors. In 1603, when the MacGregors were told to change their name
or die, not all of them decided to do so. When the time came that those that
did change their name could change it back to MacGregor, many chose not
to do so. One of these people was a famous Stirling.
changed his surname to Campbell, which was his mother's maiden name.
Why would someone want to take the name of his Clans enemy "the hated
Campbells." The MacGregors were Jacobites, and the Campbells
supported the King of England. Rob Roy MacGregor was a Protestant, but
in 1730 converted to Catholicism, as the Jacobites were Catholic.
Familytreedna.com gives us a useful tool, if we have a match to our DNA
we can get an Idea of how close in years the most recent common ancestor
(mrca) is. Remember if we have a match of 23/25 markers its not a question
of are we related but how distant is that relationship. The closer the
markers, the closer we are in years to that mrca.
Familytreedna.com states that with a 25/25 marker match that the
probability of that person being related within 13 generations is 95%, and
with a 24/25 marker match the probability is 95% within 20 generations. If
we go one step farther out 23/25 marker match there is a 90% chance of
being related within 23 generations and a 95% chance of being related
within 27 generations. Now if we convert the percentage to years, all we do
is multiply the generations by 25 - 30 years. I know this is confusing and if it
does not make sense to you just keep reading and it will become clear.
If we look at the marker distance between the surname Laird and Cooper,
there is none, it is a perfect match, this means we have a 25/25 marker
match. With a perfect match if we did find the paper trail showing how we
are related, more than likely it would be within 13 generations or within 390
years. I have my family traced back to about the year 1690, so this means I
should look for a connection somewhere in the 1600s to 1700s area.
Now the Turner markers are not a perfect match, they are 24/25 this gives
us a 95% chance of finding the relationship within a 20 generation time
period or 600 years, or a 90% chance of finding them within 16 generations
or 480 years, this means that we should be looking in a time period in the
area of 1400s to 1600s for the most likely chance of finding the common
ancestor.
Now when I take the kit number of one of the Turners that has a 24/25
match and plug it into the ysearch.org database we get these matches.
- Stewart 24/25
- Stirling 23/25
- MacGregor 23/25
- MacGregor 23/25
- MacGregor 23/25
- MacGregor 23/25
- MacGregor 23/25
Now lets look at one of the Turners that is a 23/25 match to Laird. This was
done in the same manner as above.
- Stewart 24/25
- Stirling 24/25
- MacGregor 24/25
- MacGregor 24/25
- MacGregor 24/25
- MacGregor 24/25
- MacGregor 24/25
- MacGregor 23/25
- MacGregor 23/25
- MacGregor 23/25
The Turner name shows a very strong relationship to MacGregor. I did the
same test for the surname Cooper and the only names that match are Laird
and Turner. This is partly due to the fact I had to use the Cooper name that
had a 24/25 match to Laird as it was the only Cooper with a 25 marker test
in the ysearch.org database. I find it odd that changing one number can
make this name so far off from the rest in the database. My test came up
with 3 rare numbers out of the first 12 markers, this fact moves many of the
matches for MacGregor to 22/25 markers. The Cooper that matches 25/25 to
Laird, of course shows the same matches as Laird.
"Laird Family Genealogy Forum". I would like to share two posts from that
site, and thank in advance the people who posted the questions and reply,
BUBOSCO Betrand, and Vllaird. The first post did not give a name and is
listed as private.
Posted: MacGregor Laird, b, c1833, bhead, Cheshire, England posted
October 5, 2003
"Hello to all- a hardy welcome to my table-around the world I am a one-
namer, researching Grierson, Grier, Greer, but I do various other work-
MacGregor, MacGregor and forename studies. Below is part of that
forename study. Please consider yourself friendly. I would be interested in
learning anything about several Lairds whose line crossing over the Clan
Gregor or MacGregor surname. Sources (1) 1881 British Census.
MacGregor Laird
Gender male
Born c1833 , Bhead, Cheshire, England."
The above Laird is part of the ship building Lairds, and his mother was a
MacGregor, so this is not an instance of a MacGregor changing his name to
Laird. Now lets look at William Laird MacGregor, I do think this is one
instance where a MacGregor is using the surname Laird.
A person using the identity of DUBOSCO Bertrand wanted information on a
William Laird MacGregor, a Scotsman in France, c,1880 - 1892 here is the
reply posted by Vllaird.
W.S.Laird is listed in the book " An Index to Changes of Name" by W.P.W.
Phillmore, as follows. "Laird Macgregor: Laird, W.S., at present residing at
Craigcrotan Archacon (Gironde, Fr), Esq. Times, d.p., is June, and 15 Dec.,
1893." "Times" is a publication , probably newspaper. "d.p." is deed poll,
which was one method of a name change. I hope this provides a clue to
help you with your search, Vll.
This is very good proof of MacGregors using the Laird surname, and I
thank these people for bringing this information to light. I would also like to
encourage people to use the Laird Family Genealogy Forum. There are
other good forums on the web, I am a member of one for Perth, Scotland,
where information is exchanged without any limitation with respect to
surname.
So do I think that my Laird line is descended from the Clan Gregor? Yes I
do. If not Clan Gregor, I believe I can claim no other. If you wish to speak to
me about any of the information here, feel free to send me an e-mail. I would
love to hear from you.
I always wondered if the Laird name was part of a Clan in Scotland, as
many people say it is a lowland name, is not a sept of any Clan, and does
not have a tartan to call its own. As a history lover, I wondered what part of
Scotland my ancestors came from and what they had to endure to get my
Laird line to this point in history. Without a paper trail showing a direct line
we are stuck in time and forced to ponder the unknown. With the event of
Y-DNA testing we are given a wonderful tool to see back in time to a place
of our beginnings.
As of todays date October 1, 2005 there is only one other Laird posted on
the www.familytreedna site, he is not closely related as far as I can tell by
DNA or a paper trail, and is not part of the LAIRD FAMILY DNA PROJECT.
You can view my DNA at www.ysearch.org, just look under surname Laird
and you will find both of us there. The other Laird is part of the Clan
Sinclair, a Clan with a fantastic history about it. A history enmeshed in the
search for the Holy Grail, and Viking lore. He has a wonderful web site,` one
of the best in all of Scotland.
If you wish to visit his site go to www.laird.org.uk
The green color in the map of Scotland below shows where Laird families
lived in 2005, the brighter the green the higher the concentration. The
bright green area that looks like a triangle is mainly around Perthshire and
Angus. If you look just below the green area you will see the River Tay with
the city of Perth at its end, moving toward the Ocean you will find the city
of Dundee, and just north of the river and at the base of the green triangle
is the city of Cupar.
The source of the Cooper name is taken from two sources, one source is
occupational, someone that makes casks, buckets, and tubs, and may
engage in the sale of these wares. The second form of the name is a place
name derived from the city of Cupar.
I checked cemetery records, and in the city of Dundee there is a graveyard
with a large amount of Cooper, Laird, Turner and Stirling Graves. To search
the Howff cemetery go to this site tayvalleyfhs.org. The graveyard has
people from around the area not just Dundee. According to tayvalley.org
"The Howff is the Dundee's oldest surviving cemetery bequeathed to the
town by Mary Queen of Scots."
There is a very informative page in the electricscotland.com site about the
source of the Cooper name, along with a brief history of the family in
Scotland. It states that in the year 1613, Fina Couper of Atholl, was fined for
sheltering outlawed MacGregors, this record can be found in the Privy
Council of Scotland records. For the Cooper family to take a chance of
angering the Privy Council of Scotland, they must have had close ties with
the MacGregors. It may be stretching a bit, but some of the MacGregors
may have taken the Cooper Surname, and this could be the link between
my DNA and the Cooper's.
The source of the Turner surname is from an occupation, it comes from the
job of turning parts on a lathe, but it is also an ancient name, and part of the
Clan Lamont. The Clan Lamont also did the Clan Gregor a valuable favor by
protecting Macgregors in times of need, shielding Clan members from
those that would hunt them down and kill them for the price on their heads,
or to acquire their lands.
A Turner website tells that a "Mr. Turner holds the important and valuable
office of legal assessor and town clerk of the city of Glasgow, and is a J.P.
From Cos. Perth and Lanark". The site goes on to say that the family Turner
had lands on the banks of the Loch Lomond, Dumartonshire close to
Argyle, the ancient home of the MacGregors, and when the famous Rob
Roy MacGregor died he bequeathed to Mr. Turner's grandfather two
hundred and fifty pounds. If you would like to read more about this go to
the website Turner Family. There are very important historic links to both
surnames Cooper and Turner, and enough proof to prove that Cooper and
Turner may have Clan MacGregor blood mixed into their family names.
One fact that stands out in my mind is that most of the people that match
have given the origin of their ancestor on ysearch.org have given the place
names of Perthshire, Angus, and Stirling. This fact gives me reason to
believe that my Lairds came from this area, and what a beautiful area it is. I
hope this information has helped you in some way, and I wish you all the
luck in your search for your ancestors.
John Martin Laird
Destiny in Front of the
Chapel at Moot Hill.
Place of Scottish Kings.
